Multiple techniques working together... ?

Hey all!

I have been using four specific techniques depending on the situation I am in.

1. If I am having difficulty with moodiness I use a zazen style and just sit, breathe and allow sensations, mind movements and objects to come and go with a varying degree of "success". This seems to calm me quite a bit however doesn't seem to get much deeper than just being relaxed. From time to time I have sensed very strongly no-self or the impersonal nature of sensation. I had many of my early break-throughs with this style.

2. If I am calm I use what I've heard referred to as "kasina". Eyes open, locked on an object (a small spot on my wall) and keep moving my mind there until it rests and I get to what I assume is "access concentration" as described in MCTB (I think this would be called "kasina style samatha"?) I may have entered any number of the jhana's with this technique but I'm still very vague on understanding exactly what the difference between access concentration and jhana is. I have experienced what I have come to describe as "spacious spaciousness" where there seems like there is more space or room for things to happen between "me" and "stuff". I've described this as a breathing body noticing things in a stable concentration state.

3. Mahasi Sayadaw style noting. Apparently most practitioners are familiar with this approach so I don't need to go into explanation here. I use this at work to keep my mind on what I'm doing. I haven't experienced any depth with this other than I am noticing a subtle change over the course of weeks/months in how I notice that I am not noticing things. This is hard to describe but I see it as a positive thing because I'm noticing more often that I am not noticing sooner and returning to noticing. It;s a bit frantic sometimes and even a little "nutty", like the circular head trip becomes extremely apparent and freaks me out a little once in awhile.

4. Almost every evening I go for a 20-30 minute walk and try to align breathing, walking, embodiment and the world. My intention here is to bring it all together. It's very calming; slows down my pace and I've had the most worldly panoramic insights from this style.

To keep compassion and morality in the mix I use prayer either before or after formal sitting and occasionally will sit and consider the good in people if I feel a lack of connection.

Any thoughts on refining these practices? Is this too much? It seems fairly rounded to me, am I a loon?

Thanks!

I would like to think my practice's purpose is to achieve stream entry and beyond in a reasonably short amount of time. I see what you're saying though. I had not noticed that. I am aware that I have aversion to experience so I try to use these varying techniques to press my awareness more into the moment to escape suffering by seeing everything as transient. If this is a good tactic or not.. well I could use some input here.

I should probably note that I do have some experience with emotions coming up and trying to "be with them" or just allow them to be there and play out without acting inappropriately however wouldn't say I am very skilled with this, so often I will move to a calming technique to keep from acting like an asshole;)

That you've just noticed that is excellent.

If all things are transient, that applies equally to the "good stuff" too, right? So are you noticing that or are you thinking "woo, yay, got some good stuff going on". Important not only to notice aversion, but also notice clinging.

I don't recommend doing this in a self-punishing way ("I'm such a fuck-up, clinging and rejecting!"). Just notice it. It's normal. Noticing the level at which we play this game with ourselves can become absolutely fascinating quite quickly.

I should probably note that I do have some experience with emotions coming up and trying to "be with them" or just allow them to be there and play out without acting inappropriately however wouldn't say I am very skilled with this, so often I will move to a calming technique to keep from acting like an asshole;)


-duane_eugene_miller

This is probably appropriate at work, at dinner, etc. No need to be an asshole to others. I have done some practices (which I think come from Mahamudra) where during a walk or a sit I would return to a recent emotion and really focus on how it was manifesting. Feel the physical sensations, notice the stream of imagery the mind generates, notice the clenching, the tensions, the breathing changes, the grimacing of the face, or whatever else happens to the body/mind. Let the emotion be fully there and try to watch everything that is going on in that stream of experience. See how many things you can identify that make up the experience of grief or anger or frustration or whatever emotion it is. Maybe that would be useful to try?

Yes I'm fairly certain that I've been told this before and somehow managed to trick myself back into noticing the "bad' stuff and just enjoying the "good' stuff. So there is an aspect there that I am not looking deeply into.

I began this little journey with a lot of pseudo Dharma before I really began to "get it" but that stuff was really good for "kindness" teaching so I don't have problems (that I notice on the surface) with "I'm so fucked up" or anything like that. I just try to reorient and look and see in the right direction. I suppose judging how successful I actually am at that is primarily why I seek input. To make sure I'm seeing all the angles.

You've read MCTB?


-cmarti

Yes, once and occasionally refer back to it (It's actually sitting right on the floor next to my reading chair currently:) I did not read through all the different maps near the end of the book because it seemed far beyond my understanding and of little interest this early in practice. I actually understand a great deal more experientially now than I did when i read it (which was less than 6 months ago I think) - Perhaps it had a more profound effect than i realized:) It certainly spells things out pretty well although some stuff i don't get mostly because I can't reference it from experience (such as the jhana's and what not). I've had some weird mind states and stable concentration but couldn't tell you for sure what they're called formally. I have managed in the last two weeks to nail down access concentration or whatever the base concentration state is if I understand the mind strata correctly as an ascending pattern. ?

Have you tried practicing the way Ingram describes in the "how to" sections of MCTB?


-cmarti

I thought that I had been at least with respect to "whenever you can" because I've been trying to find ways to keep awareness forward as often as possible (or as often as I notice that I'm not;)

I think I remember reading that he preferred a one method approach (Mahasi Sayadaw style noting) but I don't recall what his thoughts were on the effectiveness of situational techniques. I can see that if techniques are being switched up to move away from boredom would not be productive but I'm not convinced that that is what I'm doing. I do prefer to be calmer because I am kinder to people and can see more clearly what is happening and how I am reacting to it. I also see the importance of being able to step back and note intense emotions and such but that is not something I'm extremely skilled at so I have to pick my battles so to speak.

This is probably appropriate at work, at dinner, etc. No need to be an asshole to others. I have done some practices (which I think come from Mahamudra) where during a walk or a sit I would return to a recent emotion and really focus on how it was manifesting. Feel the physical sensations, notice the stream of imagery the mind generates, notice the clenching, the tensions, the breathing changes, the grimacing of the face, or whatever else happens to the body/mind. Let the emotion be fully there and try to watch everything that is going on in that stream of experience. See how many things you can identify that make up the experience of grief or anger or frustration or whatever emotion it is. Maybe that would be useful to try?


-ona

Yeah that sounds great. I continue to have a difficult time with intense emotions and anything that will help see through them would probably be productive. This sort of thing has been suggested to me before but I am fairly new to all of this and with the amount of information I am trying to absorb from books, the web and friends, some things tend to get lost in the mix or overlooked;)

I don't think it needs to be a regular daily thing. It can be something you do when you've had a particularly tough day or an incident where you felt really upset. I know time can be an issue, but what i generally did was keep my daily 30 minute sit very consistent (just noting, just "just sitting" or whatever I was assigned that week or month), then do other practices separately - devotional stuff, vision work, other meditation techniques, exploring jhanas or energy work, etc. Some of those might just be 10 or 15 minutes, or more, depending, and tended to be something I did for a few days or a week, then explored something else. So that provided room for exploring supplemental stuff and experimenting while also keeping consistency.

Hi Duane,

First, I think it’s great that you’re noticing there are lots of practices to choose from, for developing different types of qualities useful on the path. This will definitely come in handy. But, I agree with Chris that if you’re goal is something as specific as stream entry, particularly as defined in the Mahasi Sayadaw tradition (which is the basis of the pragmatic dharma crowd, a la Ingram and Folk), you’re best off sticking to noting for the majority of your formal practice.

A couple of caveats here, of course…

- If you find that there are obstacles to effectively practicing noting, look into it. For example, it could be that you’re lacking concentration. You might think that you should switch to kasina practice or some other shamatha technique to boost your concentration, but that might not be necessary. The antidote might very well be more noting, since noting also builds a certain kind of momentary concentration that is necessary for good Mahasi practice. Sometimes the answer is simply more of the same, rather than switching it up.

- If you find yourself in a situation where noting just isn’t going to cut it, there are some other ways to work with difficult situations. One of my favorites is “taking and sending,” which doesn’t detract from noting practice, in my opinion. It’s like this, whenever something unpleasurable (i.e. negatively evaluated) comes up, take it in. Be with it as though you’re experiencing the suffering of all sentient beings, for their benefit. Then, when you feel any measure of peace, contentment, or happiness; or, when some insight arises that seems important, immediately offer it away to the benefit of all beings. Why do this? Because it counteracts the two forces that are also the aim of vipassana practice: aversion and greed. You fight aversion by taking in aversive phenomena, and you fight greed by giving away all attachment phenomena. Each act is mutually supportive.

The moral of the story, for me anyway, is to practice your main practice as much as possible. But, if you need something extra to prevent you from doing something stupid – that is to say, harmful to yourself or someone else – add some taking and sending; both to keep things in perspective, and to keep progress moving in the same direction.

I hope that helps!

-Jackson

(simultanious post-this was in response to cmarti) Yes, that makes sense.
I do like what ona has to say about experimenting with other styles because it is such an interesting journey and playing around with different styles tends to bring up different stuff (at least it appears that way to me).
I do most of my practice at work which would be noting (Mahasi style) however I just read a bit about Kenneth Folk's style yesterday (funny this should come up) and it seems pretty concise as well.
I sit for a half hour every morning now (it took me a long time to get into a groove with that) and I suppose I've got to make some decisions about fine tuning my practice.

Ha!
That's kind of a bummer but I see what you're saying.
I was digging concentration practice because it was bringing up some spacious states that are fairly pleasant but I can't do concentration practice at work.
I suppose the only practice that will overlap work and home effectively will be noting.

Yup:)

Ha!
That's kind of a bummer ...

-duane_eugene_miller

Note the aversion.

As encouragement, too, keep in mind there is infinite time to explore all kinds of things. Build your house first, then decorate, might be a useful analogy.

Duane, the point of all this is to wake up, right?


-cmarti

Actually, I think i should answer this a bit clearer. First of all I have no experience (to my knowledge) of what that actually means so if I want it or not I cannot be certain. I know I want a ham sammich because I've had them, they are delicious and I love me a ham sammich. I have some assumptions of what being awake might be like and how to make that happen but when I ask myself what I really want I come up with something like this: I want to be able to be kind to people on a deeply profound level that changes their lives for the better. I want to know who I am and live fearlessly. I want to love freely. myself and others, life, earth, the universe. That's a close approximation of what I want out of all this.