Questions

Hi everyone,

I just have some practice questions I wanted to get some feedback on, if possible.

1) When watching one's thoughts during vipassana are there any other focuses of attention, like the breath? I find that if I try to watch my thoughts they all go really fast and I don't know what to watch. If I focus on my ajna first then maybe I can see the thoughts better. In fact, I sometimes am just aware of blackness and if I engage this blackness I can feel awareness of "I" disappearing a little bit. This is the space between the thoughts that I focus on. This practice isn't concentration on the ajna though it seems, and I don't know if it's wise to deviate from my instructed practice. It seems as though I should become aware of this space between the thoughts SOMETIME during the course of focusing on the ajna.

2) If time goes faster during a meditation session, does this indicate that I was in a more pointed state of concentration? Is time going faster necessarily a good sign? I find that if I watch my thoughts or breath time goes slower, but if I focus on my ajnacakra time generally goes more quickly. Sometimes I am surprised that the timer goes off when it does.

When I focus on my ajna I usually get a wide range of distracting thoughts. Sometimes the thoughts are images that seem to have no relation to my life. For example, this morning I very quickly saw a one-armed woman putting up wallpaper. I don't get such images when I focus on the space between the thoughts. When focusing on my ajna, sometimes my thoughts reel me in and I have to bring myself back to the task at hand. If I focus on my thoughts after watching my breath or focusing on my ajna, the number of thoughts seem less and I become aware of a kind of background to my thoughts. This is not apparent when I focus on my ajna. I guess that I feel that becoming aware of the space between thoughts and seeing thoughts more easily should naturally arise from continually focusing on the ajna, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Just wondering if anyone has thoughts on this.

Do you find that you could say that while at times a focus on a single point (brow chakra for example) feels natural, at this time it feels confining or disruptive, and your attention wants to broaden out and be less tightly focused? I ask because I noticed this pattern in my own meditation - sometimes it seems that attention wants to be very contracted and inward focused, and other times it seems to want to pull out to a broader, softer focus. If that makes sense to you, I would allow that to be as it wishes to be.

I think it is natural to begin to notice not only thoughts, but also the spaces between them. Where do they come from? Where do they go? How fascinating that they just sort of pop up and disappear again. If that's what you are noticing now, allow yourself to notice that. In other words, as new elements of experience become apparent, incorporate noticing them into your field of attention.

Perhaps most simply, the key thing is to hold your attention on the present moment as closely as possible. In the beginning, since we tend to wander off in stories so much, we might find focusing on a candle flame or the nostrils or the breath or other specific things helps to keep us attentive to the present more closely. As we become more adept at paying attention to the present moment, then the use of a specific object of concentration is not always necessary. You might find it a useful way to begin, but then not need it during the entire meditation, returning to the object only if you find you are no longer closely paying attention to the present.

That's my take on things. Is it helpful?

Good points, Ona.

Jake2, you seem to be doing a good job noticing that different things happen in practice when different foci of attention are chosen. Continue to notice that.

There's something else worth noticing too, though. Upon noticing differences, your mind then engages in a process of evalutation: is it better for time to go fast or slow? is it better to focus on thoughts or the ajna? Etc. etc. Are you willing to notice evaluation thoughts the same way you notice those unusual images that arise? Are you willing to allow your mind to lose focus, and then to notice when focus returns?

In my opinion, skillful meditation is a way to practice skillful qualities. Willingness/acceptance is a big one. Cultivating willingness to notice whatever arises, and to let it be that way until it isn't, is more important than adhering to any given technique. When we're willing to accept some experiences as valid, and consider others not important, we're likely to identify with the former and arbirarily split ourselves off from the other. That's a recipe for suffering if I've ever heard one.

Allow your mind to do what it does. Notice what it does. Notice the way it does it. From time to time, ask yourself whether or not this is enough. If it isn't enough, look into the sense of lack and don't try to fix it. Allow it, notice it, notice what it does, and ask yourself whether or not this is enough.

It's hard to think of a faster way to discover one's "True Nature" than this.

Also very good points you say, Jackson. I've lately been thinking quite often that how we relate to the practice itself (for example "is it better if I do this or that" or "shouldn't I be experiencing that instead of this") are more important for how they show us how we are relating to the practice, than for any answer that might exist. That is the former example points to a feeling of doubt. The second example points to grasping or aversion, and so on. In any case, sorry to get a bit tangential.

A simple way to do vipassana.

1. As the abdomen rises on the in-breath, note or notice "rising."

2. Just as the in breath stops and just before the out breath, note or notice "stopping."

3. As the abdomen falls on the out-breath, note or notice, "falling."

4. Just as the out breath stops and the in-breath starts again, note or notice "stopping."

Try to see all four steps for each breath cycle.

Then, within each cycle notice the sensations in the abdomen. Notice how they change. If you are mentally noting - note "hard," "soft," "itching," "tickle," etc.

Keep just this going noticing how with each breath what happens and what changes. And, within each in-breath, out-breath, stopping -- how feelings change, sensations change, how images pop up and come and go. As Jackson says "Cultivate (ing) willingness to notice whatever arises, and to let it be that way until it isn't."

A lot of teacher say this is enough. Just noticing the changing sensations of the in and out breath out the abdomen is all one has to do. However, one can also, while doing this, notice/note strong sensations in other parts of the body and stay with those until they go away, and then go back to the abdomen -- until the next strong sensation somewhere else arises.

One thing that Kenneth Folk taught me that seemed to make a differnce was to, eventually, after some pratice, to get a real good sense of when a sensation STOPS. Notice the ending of things.

I don't what you're saying is tangential. It gets me thinking...

Meditation is often framed in paying attention to objects of experience, and then noticing characteristics of these objects. At least this is how a lot of vipassana instructions go. But sometimes I think there's an expectation that if one just sees things the right way, the unskillful ways of relating to the objects will take care of itself.

While learning to see phenomenal appearances as they are, rather than as they say they are, is of paramount importance; it is perhaps just as (if not more) important to inquire into how phenomena is being related to, regardless of how it appears. We should not only ask, "What is this like?" but also, "How am I responding?" If that latter process is not included, one's practice less effective; that is, if one's goal has anything to do with alleviating suffering.

Those are good instructions, Mike. Very foundational.

@jackson it occurs to me that traditions like mine in which one relates to a guiding entity (HGA, God, etc.) may actually externalize this process of relating to practice via the relationship to the guiding entity. That is, one can feel doubt that the HGA is there, confidence that it is indeed there, longing for deeper union with the HGA, abandonment by the HGA, dread of the insights the HGA is revealing, comforted by the HGA, and so on. And this tends to parallel the phases of practice and how one is relating to it. Just an initial ponder. I'll think on it more.

I like the way relating seems to be thoroughly worked into the practice you just described. It sounds very helpful in the long term. In the short term, it sounds like it gets pretty personal, which can be quite painful, I imagine. It's something that has to worked through at some point, though, so why not just get to it?

I'm curious about any further relflections you have on this.

How so painful/personal? What do you mean? Intrigued by that and not sure what you have in mind.

Great question.

Many Buddhist meditation practices are non-personal in nature. See phenomena as phenomena only, and not as self. What you described is different. You begin by invoking an entity, and then begin relating with it very personally. A similar transformation ensues, but one takes relationship as path, and the other takes more of a passive, empirical approach.

I say "painful" because the emotional pain experienced in relationship with others (or lack there of) is one of the most fundental kinds of human pain. I believe it's woven into our experience just as much as physical pain. As humans, we survived many perils by banding together. Without community, an individual would not likely survive. So, those humans who established strong emotional bonds with others were able to stay together. The painful part is having the capacity for connection, and then having it ripped away. It's not unlike feeling good, and then having one's hand broken. It was just as detrimental for survival in our ancestral environment.

So, we all tend to experience emotional pain in some form during practice. It comes up whether we focus on a relationship with our HGA, or if it bubbles up more naturally in the form of memories or fantasmic images presenting to our mind's eye. The benefit of going directly to relationship as practice is that there may be less of a tendency to shy away from it. We tend to shy away from what is painful.

My initial thoughts about this practice could be way off base, however. It's not one that I have experience with. This is just the kind of stuff that bubbles up when I hear descriptions like yours. I'd love more info

When watching one's thoughts during vipassana are there any other focuses of attention, like the breath?

-sunyata

For what it is worth, here's my answer:
As a practical suggestion, it's better the other way around. Use breath as your only focus and then allow your awareness to expand to include more sensations/thoughts as it wants... and when in doubt, return and make sure you are picking up on the sensations of breathing.

A focus is like the thumb tack on a bulletin board. You can focus on just the thumb tack, or include what it's holding up, or including the whole board, or include the wall, too. But if you can't see the thumb tack, you've lost your focus.

So it would probably better to make sure you are getting a steady stream of sensations of breathing, moment by moment, and then if thoughts also occur and you can be aware of them as thoughts, that's a good addition. EDIT: you can include >everything< without distraction, it's completely possible. But it tends to be very stage dependent (like in Equanimity, if you are into thinking that way) so practically you shouldn't expect that everytime you sit you can just jump into including everything.

The thing with using thoughts as a focus is you have to "get them" as thoughts. You get the thought-ness of thoughts, instanteous meaning, not a narrative story. In the beginning this is really hard to do, but there are times when watching thoughts is like listening to a radio with the volume just a little too quiet, just too soft to understand the words. Then including thoughts makes a lot of sense.

If you get sucked into the story line of thoughts, then you quickly run the risk of time daydreaming. There is a confusing thing that can happen when you get sucked in while concentrated --- it feels like insight, but it's usual more like exploring mystical/magical dimensions. I think Shinzen Young talks about going straight down to insight/"the source" versus going diagonally down (insight plus the realms of power/mysticism) or getting lost going sideways after getting more concentrated (just the realms of power). So just a note of caution, if it feels very creativite and interesting, or weird phenominon start popping up, or it's almost like another dream world... then that's rarely the realm of insight. It's fun, but it can be a sidetrack!

Thanks.

But will Sunyata use them?

It is really as simple as what I described.

Great question.
Many Buddhist meditation practices are non-personal in nature. See phenomena as phenomena only, and not as self. What you described is different. You begin by invoking an entity, and then begin relating with it very personally. A similar transformation ensues, but one takes relationship as path, and the other takes more of a passive, empirical approach.
....The painful part is having the capacity for connection, and then having it ripped away. It's not unlike feeling good, and then having one's hand broken. It was just as detrimental for survival in our ancestral environment.
... The benefit of going directly to relationship as practice is that there may be less of a tendency to shy away from it. We tend to shy away from what is painful.
My initial thoughts about this practice could be way off base, however. It's not one that I have experience with. This is just the kind of stuff that bubbles up when I hear descriptions like yours. I'd love more info


-awouldbehipster

Yes, I think that is true in devotional practices (the same kind of relationship can be central in forms of yoga where one has an inner guru, for example, as well as in Christian mysticism, etc.). I suspect that may be a great strength of such practices, because one cannot separate emotional/psychological aspects of ones being from practice.

I think it is also useful in that much of what is going on in practice comes up in symbols as opposed to abstractly, which can make it more clear to deal with (even if it is very scary or painful). That is, if one is going through a phase of fear, and fear is personified in visions or dreams as a demon, one can gather ones courage and confront the demon, talk to the demon, banish the demon, and so on, using symbolic ritual. If ones relationship to awakening is personified in the HGA, then one can call upon that to protect one. So one is turning ones mind to the qualities of awakening to battle delusion, but in the form of representative entities.

The relationship to the HGA (or similar entity in other traditions) also encourages a constant surrender/letting go to the wisdom and authority of the angel, which again is something that can make more sense and be easier to do when symbolized that way. Giving up of ones own will, allowing the Will of the HGA/God to take over, is I think a very innate and easy to understand concept when applied to a "being". It also addresses our discomforts with the very idea of surrender, which I think are a bit harder to understand in a secular/non-theistic setting. That is, to resist the idea of surrendering ones will to Divine Will - does that make you angry, resistant, horrified, repulsed? Look at that. Who is it who is thinking that? On what basis? The questions can point to the clinging to a sense of control, ego-centered existence, and so on in a very vivid way.

Of course, if one thinks this sort of thing ridiculous, there's no point in such a theistic approach, and a secular sort of practice is probably a better choice.

Thanks for all your insights and suggestions. I will explore this more to see where my mind naturally takes me; however, I also like the idea of using the point of concentration as an anchor if need be.

Jackson, thanks for the point to see my evaluation thoughts as just another piece of mind-phenomena. I did not consider this.

Mike, thanks for the practice suggestion. I find that if I focus on my abdomen area for too long that it becomes physically uncomfortable and also promotes depression. In order to balance my energy, I focus on practices that draw my energy up. Since this practice focuses on my abdomen, I am pretty confident that I could not do this particular one. I like the idea of noticing the stopping of things. Up until now, I have focused more on the generation of things. I guess the key may be to see both.

Jake2, if you want to notice starts-and-stops at a place higher up on your body, the in-and-out breath at or below the nostrils is a good spot. I don't know what you're experience is with focus here, but it tends to be very uplifting for me.

Jake2, if you want to notice starts-and-stops at a place higher up on your body, the in-and-out breath at or below the nostrils is a good spot. I don't know what you're experience is with focus here, but it tends to be very uplifting for me.

-awouldbehipster

Yes, try it at the nostrils.

If you practice following your breath at your abdomen you get depressed? That's a drag.

Ditto on nostrils - it tends to generate bliss states quite readily, too.

(I find concentrating on the brow chakra generates a lot of quite intense and heavy head-energy, which can be distracting, while focusing on the upper lip/nostril is quieter and blissier.)

Agreed. The cool flickering sensations of breath at nostrils is my thumbtack!

I wonder if an experienced vipassana teacher would tell Jake2 to stick to the feelings at the abdomen and then note/notice this discomfort and depression. Vipassana/awakening isn't really about finding comfort/bliss, etc. is it? -- those are more instructions for samatha. It's about being with what is there.

Maybe if he stuck with it Sunyata would eventually come to equanimity and the discomfort/depression would abate?



But, I'm certainly not qualified to make such an instruction. However, it does seem unusual that the abdomen breathing would be so uncomfortable.



And, the nostrils would be good. there are sensations there of course, And, a lot of the Burmese vipassana teachers other than Mahashi taught doing vipassana by feeling the sensation of the breath on the upper lip or the nostril hairs. I'd certainly say to not go for whatever is blissful though - just what comes up. Bare.



That Hamilton guy was once sitting with Kenneth Folk and he was holding a plastic radio or cassette recorder and he said that if one just rubbed that one their skin and noticed the changing sensations they could go all the way to "arhat" just from that one practice. To me, that really shows how simple all this is.

"I wonder if an experienced vipassana teacher would tell Jake2 to stick to the feelings at the abdomen and then note/notice this discomfort and depression. Vipassana/awakening isn't really about finding comfort/bliss, etc. is it? -- those are more instructions for samatha. It's about being with what is there. Maybe if he stuck with it Sunyata would eventually come to equanimity and the discomfort/depression would abate?" -Mike

I'm sure some teachers would recommend that, but I sure wouldn't. It seems to make logical sense to zero-in on trouble spots until they're somehow fixed by awareness, but it hasn't ever worked that way for me. What I find to be a more workable process is to start with the areas that are more conducive to comfortable states, and then to expand attention to include the more difficult areas. That way it's less about trying to get rid of bad feelings, and more about learning to include all feelings.

I don't think you were endorsing the view that I'm opposing here, Mike. I am, however, pointing out why instructions to focus on uncomfortable areas can turn into bad advice, depending on how one interprets them.

It's true that "whatever comes up" is fodder for practice and practice can include very difficult and painful periods, but I do think there's no need to be masochistic and deliberately choose a practice that is extra-uncomfortable. As long as the attention is kept focused on the moment as best one is able to, that is enough. Doing something that also creates some pleasure can be very motivating, and is not necessarily a problem as long as one keeps attention on the moment.

Or, to say, flogging oneself with a painful, masochistic practice is as much of a trap as spending all day generating bliss states and wallowing in bliss. Some people tend to find the former appealing for dysfunctional reasons (Calvinist attitudes about pleasure, for example). And some people find the latter an escape from reality, too. But awakening is blissful, is joyous, is wondrous and delightful, and doing a practice that happens to be (sometimes) (somewhat) pleasant is not at odds with insight.

I haven't experienced any bliss states when I focus on the ajna. What I do feel after a meditation session is a lightness. If I do start to feel depressed, if I focus on my ajna for 10 min or so and not necessarily while in a sitting posture but just throughout the day, my depression will dissipate drastically. I also find that I tend to have irregularity if I focus on my lower abdomen and focusing on my ajna ensures I don't have this problem.

It is probably related to anxiety. I have serious social anxiety and I think the jolts of energy I get in my diaphragm/solar plexus draws my energy down which contributes to depression and a blockage of energy in my lower half. I once was read by Motoyama's AMI machine, which indicated that there is an imbalance in energy between the upper and lower halves of my body: my energy is disproportionately congregated in the lower half. I even asked the I-Ching one time how to cure my irregularity and its answer was: "To decrease what is lower is to increase what is above." Intriguing.

@sunyata - given you have done quite a bit of energy work and are aware of your energy patterns, I'd follow you "gut" (sorry!) on what works or doesn't work for you in terms of energy balancing and so forth. Not all meditators work with those systems, just as not everyone is into theistic stuff, and that's totally okay. But if you do use those practices, then take advantage of them to support your meditation practice by balancing yourself and doing self-healing stuff that works for you.

I suspect you will eventually find the anxiety stuff drops away (it may take time, it may go quite suddenly or in dribs and drabs) and when that happens the abdominal area will be freed up.

I'll just relate one experience I had, which was a period of a week a couple years ago where I had the most agonizing pain in my stomach area. I actually thought I had food poisoning or something for a few hours, but then there was no digestive problem, just this aching, burning sensation. For a day or two I kept visualizing cool light there, which soothed it. Then finally one morning I couldn't even get out of bed. I finally did a meditation and asked that whatever was being held there be released, and I had an outpouring of childhood memories and grief. And the pain vanished. In this case it wasn't something that had been an ongoing problem (that I was aware of) but there were clearly some old anxieties hidden there that finally freed up and surfaced. Other similar processes of freeing up of old emotional and psychological stuff have continued to come up throughout my practice. Meditation is, as I see it, a sort of profound inner purification process. When such stuff surfaces, I try (my best) to bring my meditation practice to it. I allow everything to pour out, and as I can I simply notice: I am afraid, I am sad, I am in pain, it flows by itself, it releases itself, I am safe, even in the face of this fear or pain. I am safe, because what I am is vast enough for all of that to just rise up and pour out without any damage. I am not those thoughts, memories or experiences. They are merely a tiny part of the vastness of the universe, like a ripple in a huge river. I cannot be harmed by these memories.

I also, at times like that, I turn to devotional work with kind-hearted spirits like Ganesha or my Holy Guardian Angel for comfort and love to help me through it. Non-theistically I suppose there's probably energy work practices such as focusing on the heart area and metta practice (prayer of compassion for other sentient beings) that can provide similar supportive effects.