Trying to avoid unpleasantness

I just keep seeing one scenario after another lately where people take up meditation hoping to be able to get away from or not look at all the crap in their lives. Like maybe if they meditate really hard they'll get to that mythological state of total silence in their heads and some kind of ongoing bliss state. It will sort of be like being drugged all the time, except drugs are bad!

Bear with my rant.

I have had the pleasure of multiple conversations with advanced meditators as well as my own experiences, and I can just guarantee you that the one thing an ongoing meditation practice is very unlikely to do is let you tiptoe quietly around all the things you don't like in yourself, others and your life, and be blissed out and glassy eyed all day long. Not going to happen.

Instead you are going to gradually get to sit down look right at your stuff and work through the reaction of wanting to hang on to or get rid of each thing, one by one, until you give up desperately wanting to hang on to or get rid of each thing... and all your little wiggly attempts to negotiate your way out of it will be as useless as the stupid arguments of a five year old trying to talk his mother into having another cookie.

BUT, that process will end up revealing itself to be liberating, joyful and wonderful in ways you couldn't expect. Just not on your terms and not on your schedule.

Thoughts?

I agree with you, Ona.

There is no avoiding life's unpleasantness through meditation. Never. Ever.

However, there are clearly temporary meditative states that produce a quiet mind and blissful feelings. And, on retreats, people can get into a groove in which things are very very quiet and peaceful and friciton free for a while. But, of course, this ends.

I think there is enough literature out there -- a lot of it exaggerated and mythical -- that describes these blissful states and periods of time that people can experience which can lead a lot of us to a very unrealistic idea of the fruits of practice. (Brad Warner used to rant about the evils of what he called "satori porn," which are those stories of people's enlightenment experiences one can read about).

I know for sure that somehow in the popular culture I grew up with the idea that the yogi/dharma monk/practioner of image and myth was living in some kind of special place of light and wisdom free of suffering. Can anyone relate to that? We are kind of led to believe somehow that the zen monk on the zafu or the robed theravada monk, etc. are in some special, better state and if we take up their practices we too can get there. Even writing this I find it hard to let go of that myth.

I had an experience with this this morning during my sit. I have a lot of tension in my diaphragm that wraps around into my lower back. I've done many things to try to dissipate this tension EXCEPT just sitting with it and observing it change. I did that this morning and it was somewhat liberating not trying to change anything.

"... Even writing this I find it hard to let go of that myth."

This resonates with me, Mike. I admit, there is something very appealing about the idea that someday, with enough hard work and determination, in just the right way, I will never have bad feelings again. Really, who wouldn't want to get rid of bad feelings?

At some point, a choice is made. Do I let go of the idea that things can be perfect, in order to find a measure of happiness and meaning right now? Or, do I strive ahead and focus my efforts on a perfect attainment that may not even be possible? This is a big decision.

Consciously, I more often choose the former. But that doesn't mean the other view doesn't tempt me at times, and thus guide my behavior. However, in my experience, even when I listen to the voice that pleads for transcendence, it leads me back to here, where things are not, and never will be, at the level of some idealized, spotless, perfected state of experience.

Equanimity brings more relief from suffering than states of bliss, in my experience. Better to open to experience now, rather than waiting for something better down the road.

And, could there also be teachers out there who either by inference or in plain language give the impresssion that they are living this bliss-free life unencumbered by normal human difficulties and, that, if one followed him or her, such a wonderful life would be available?



Maybe a side point -- but I allways remember my friend who was my supervisor briefly at my "seasonal" job at the IRS in Austin back in the 80s. He was a devotee of Muktananda and spent several months each year with the Swami at his ashram in India. My friend met Muktananda on an Indian trip with some hippie/spiriutal friends. They saw a bunch of people waiting in line to get blessed by Muktananda and decided to see what it was all about. When it was his turn the swami stuck his thumb in my friends eye and he immediately was transported to some special, terrific, magical, blissful place that changed his life forever. From then on all he wanted was more tastes of the same -- which he got from hanging out with Muktananda.

(another side note: my friend was very spiritually/emotional mature and I learned a lot from him about how to live and work and behave and be in relationships. I wonder how much of that he got from Muktananda and how much was just .... him. )

@jackson you said "...where things are not, and never will be, at the level of some idealized, spotless, perfected state of experience...."

I think the word "idealized" is the critical thing there. Because when we have an idea about how things should be, and what "perfect" is, then we are not allowing things to be as they are, but instead are grasping at some imaginary state our ego is dreaming up and rejecting what is actually true right now, no?

I think the other extreme of this conversation is that one can believe that there is no such thing as awakening, as liberation and peace with things just as they are right now. Because one constantly has that imaginary goal in mind, and the real peace is in this moment, and not in the grasping at something else.

When that grasping and rejection is released, there is liberation, peace, joy, and bliss in this very moment.

That doesn't mean your mother-in-law's cooking gets better or your boss stops yelling at you. But it no longer is a problem.

Thoughts?

I also often wonder if some of us Westerners (it feels weird to call myself that but I guess it is what I am in one sense) grew up with all the myths and stories and images of Christianity and somehow project that onto these eastern spiritual pratices we are doing.

Jesus is a pretty huge image for all of us and maybe his example (and John the Baptist, Moses, various Christian saints, etc.) gives us an unconscious idea that some kind of perfection of life and behavior is possible.

"At some point, a choice is made. Do I let go of the idea that things can be perfect, in order to find a measure of happiness and meaning right now? Or, do I strive ahead and focus my efforts on a perfect attainment that may not even be possible? This is a big decision." - Jackson

I feel like practice naturally takes care of this distinction. They, in fact, might be be very closely related. As Shunryu Suzuki said: "You are perfect just the way you are but you could use a little improvement."

What perfection did they have? What perfect life? To get their heads chopped off? Facing death with equanimity? Having nice big dinners with friends while eating bread and wine?

(I'm being saucy, but I wonder.)

I feel like practice naturally takes care of this distinction.


-sunyata

I think practice does take care of these things, though one can throw up a lot of interference in ones attempts not to look at what's revealing itself.

What perfection did they have? What perfect life? To get their heads chopped off? Facing death with equanimity? Having nice big dinners with friends while eating bread and wine?
(I'm being saucy, but I wonder.)

-ona

I think you were addressing my post about Jesus, etc.?

I think there is a myth of perfection but I have no doubt that they (if they even actually existed) suffer(ed) just as much as the rest of us.

"I think practice does take care of these things, though one can throw up a lot of interference in ones attempts not to look at what's revealing itself."

Definitely. You can probably hold either of these views and practice will still wipe them away. As long as a view continually motivates you to practice, I think you're golden.

I think you were addressing my post about Jesus, etc.?
I think there is a myth of perfection but I have no doubt that they (if they even actually existed) suffer(ed) just as much as the rest of us.


-michaelmonson

Yes, posts got out of order, sorry.

But what was the perfection? the myth of it? that they were like what? perfect in that they never did anything to offend God, following his rules or having an unbreakable faith no matter what happened?

Yes, posts got out of order, sorry.
But what was the perfection? the myth of it? that they were like what? perfect in that they never did anything to offend God, following his rules or having an unbreakable faith no matter what happened?

-ona

Does this have something to do with how they behaved maybe, at least as their behavior is portrayed in hagiographies?

I am full of quotations this morning because I was reading 44 Fingers last night, which is a collection of American koans. Someone asked the Dalai Lama how to tell a true teacher to which he responded: "Look at them. Watch how they behave." I think a positive mode of behavior--which could be indicative of a "perfection of personality"--could be the perfection hinted at here.

Of course, the verdict's out as to what a "positive mode of behavior" actually entails. I tend to think it's transpersonal, i.e. beyond cultural mores.

Yes, posts got out of order, sorry.
But what was the perfection? the myth of it? that they were like what? perfect in that they never did anything to offend God, following his rules or having an unbreakable faith no matter what happened?

-ona

I'm not sure and I think that it varies based on each person and their specific background and influences (I know that as a person steeped in Jesus from just about birth to 14 or 15 I developed a very idealized and mythic idea of his total perfection and love) -- but I'm just talking about the general idea of spiritual life/practices leading people to exaulted places where they aren't touched by normal human problems.

I guess I was asking not what people in general thought, but what you (anyone answering the question) thought. For you, in what way do you see Jesus (or a certain lama or guru) as perfect? What qualities would that person have that would make them fit in the box labeled "perfect"? That was more the point.

@michael you hinted at it in the line where you said "they aren't touched by normal human problems" - so this would mean no one ever insults them, they don't get, say, divorced or fat or have heart attacks, they don't get caught up in lawsuits or cut off in traffic by other drivers, their kids don't talk back to them... that kind of thing? or is it more about how they react? that no matter if all those things happen, they just smile serenely and don't get upset?

That's the ponder. What is it we think of when we imagine "the perfect life"?

I'll ponder my own answer, too, because I'm not sure.

"is it more about how they react?" - ona

I think this is big part of it. Not being swayed by internal and external events.

I was thinking about this a little over lunch. How about elimination of the Three Poisons, i.e. hatred, greed, and ignorance? I'd also include anger in this one too.

Thinking back to Jeffery Martin's research, some individuals actually reported NO emotion whatsoever as well as a sense of no agency.

@sunyata, I was thinking about this the other day, and wrote a bit about it ( http://alittledeathblog.com/2012/01/23/pliability/ ), using the Christian mystic's terminology of "pliability". The more we practice, the more pliable we become, and the more pliable we become, the less we react to things from the rigid, defensive self-protective habits (anger, hatred, greed, etc.). So if our boss criticizes our work, we might normally get angry, be ashamed, worry what others think, and then stew in our thoughts the rest of the day. But from a more pliable place we might instead see that the boss is frustrated, unskillful, and afraid, and simply not have that defensive reaction arise. We might be able to simply hear between the lines and address the error in our work or offer them a comforting word for their stress and fear, and the rest of it (their obnoxious manner of delivery) is simply irrelevant. When one is pliable enough, there is nothing to defend, so defensiveness simply isn't an issue.

Thoughts?

So in terms of what I would see as "perfection," I don't know if I can define it so clearly, but some of the things I value and appreciate in people I know personally who have deep practices are these qualities like pliability, compassion, peacefulness, patience, suppleness, softness, honesty and so on. The more present these qualities are, it seems, the less things like defensiveness, hostility, anger, dishonesty, game playing, evasiveness, and so forth seem to be present.

I guess I was asking not what people in general thought, but what you (anyone answering the question) thought. For you, in what way do you see Jesus (or a certain lama or guru) as perfect? What qualities would that person have that would make them fit in the box labeled "perfect"? That was more the point.
@michael you hinted at it in the line where you said "they aren't touched by normal human problems" - so this would mean no one ever insults them, they don't get, say, divorced or fat or have heart attacks, they don't get caught up in lawsuits or cut off in traffic by other drivers, their kids don't talk back to them... that kind of thing? or is it more about how they react? that no matter if all those things happen, they just smile serenely and don't get upset?
That's the ponder. What is it we think of when we imagine "the perfect life"?
I'll ponder my own answer, too, because I'm not sure.

-ona

Ona, even attempting to answer that question shows just how silly the whole thing is, you know? Everyone has difficulties all day long all the time, and some people can get pretty good at handling things that would upset less mature or spiritually advanced people, but, I don't think there is a life possibly in which one never gets "upset."

I don't even want that life. I want to get frustrated and angry and happy and turned on and joyful and passionate and feel feel feel all day long (and I'm pulling that off just fine) and live an ordinary but intimate human life. What practice/maturity/insight/wisdom can do is reduce and sometimes eliminate the destruction my feelings might have on myself and the rest of people and life and help turn those feelings into insight and love and compassion and, often, energy, you know? that sort of energy that comes from that empty "not knowing is most intimate" place.

Hey Ona,

I enjoyed reading your article! I have never heard of The Book of Privy Council. It's funny though: I picked up Meister Eckhart the other day, which is from around the same time. I am amazed by how well his writings gel with Eastern stuff.

"Thus our Lord fashions you by both until you become so joyfully supple and so sweetly pliable that He can lead you at last to the spiritual perfection and union with His will, which is perfect love." - The Book of Privy Council

This reminds me of the experience of "no agency", non-doing, etc. as well.

I like the idea of pliability as a catchall attribute. That is, being pliable means no "self-protective habits" arise. I wonder if greed though arises out of a reaction to external events or is more engendered by instinct. Seems that pliability and greed may need to be demarcated.

@michael - No, I don't think it's silly, because most people have some preconceptions of what it means to be enlightened or awakened or a perfected master or whatever, and it's useful to be aware of what those are. Because, for example, what you are implying in this answer is quite significant to reflect on:

" I don't think there is a
life possibly in which one never gets "upset."
"What practice... can do is reduce and sometimes eliminate the destruction my feelings might have on myself [and others etc]..."
"[destructive] feelings can be turned into insight, love, compassion..."

and so on.

So where someone else might think awakening means you can walk on water, heal the sick, or fly; or as I said I tend to look at pliability, patience, etc.; you list the above as the fruits of practice.

It's not a right or wrong answer thing. It's just an interesting exercise for becoming very clear about what you expect and think about awakening. And that answer tends to change over time (did you phrase it the same way a year ago? will you phrase it the same way six months from now?), and that's also fine.

The interesting part, for me, is in uncovering our ideas, our idealizations, our concepts, etc. and just being aware of them.

... I wonder if greed though arises out of a reaction to external events or is more engendered by instinct. Seems that pliability and greed may need to be demarcated.


-sunyata

Thanks, glad you enjoyed it. I lately find the Christian stuff very profound.

I don't understand the pliability/greed thing? What do you mean?